Mike didn't mention this, but one of the genius aspects of Knave's hp system damaging your inventory slots is that you now have less space to bring treasure (i.e. experience points!) back to town
Really happy to see Knave getting your focus here! On the one hand it's pushed me firmly into having a glut of systems (this, Shadowdark, Cairn) with many of the same pros and cons. On the other hand it's got some very fun differences from the others and covers some things they don't, so together they can form a great GM buffet.
Normally, I'm a real crunch loving gamer, but I picked up Knave 2e through the Kickstarter to try something improv heavy. I ran a Diablo 1 inspired cathedral dungeon crawl with two players and we had a great time. The one player managed to solo The Butcher against great odds. (Love those moments). I love the item slot system and wish more games had uses for equipment like this. I have been looking at ways to use it in other rpgs I run. Great podcast! Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Mike.
That's really interesting! I've been wondering what a longer campaign in Knave looks like, since it's easier to imagine at lower levels, short campaigns, or one shots. What are some things you've noticed as far as depth and level scaling? Thanks!
@@sweetsummerschild The characters are still only level 2 and we've had maybe 7 or 8 sessions, so I can't speak much to the scaling and character progression. But in general I see no issue with using this system for long term campaigns. You can implement character feats, but instead of choosing them from a set of options in an offical book they develope from the story and are home brewed. Magic items, spell casting, ability scores all increase as the PCs level up. I've heard complaints that there are too many encounters per the traveling rules as written and I've found that to not be an issue. It's a great base game to build off of with your own home brew mechanics laid on top (not required but easy to implement).
@@EvanDuly No special mechanics, just checks/saves from risky PC actions. But we're playing in a Vaults of Vaarn world which is a hack of the original Knave and I'm using the factions from the second zine in that module, Gnomon. Each faction has a couple major NPCs whcih have goals, personalities, etc..
Knave 2 = great book, great system. Encaustic painting factoid = getting your portrait done was extremely popular 2,000 years ago in Egypt and around the Mediterranean, and tens of thousands of them have survived intact (despite having been painted in wax).
I'm here for the Knave 2 review. Love the book and the Peter Mullen artwork. Pair Knave 2 with Sandbox Generator by Atelier Clandestin, and you can build your own fantasy worlds!
Even though I knew a bunch of it already, I found your examination of medieval architecture and decorations to be a highlight in all the time I’ve watched your show. It gave me a ton of great ideas. Thanks!
34:40 there is a tier list for treasure. common, uncommon, and rare items, the description of which is under equipment, and you apply that to the different treasures and items table. I typically just roll a treasure for each enemy and chest in a room.
It will be nice for the Dalelands to get some love. I've been running a campaign for the last couple of years that has taken place in Sembia and the Dalelands. I like that area.
Knave 2 looks like a lot of fun. I liked the grid tables from Maze Rats more, but d100 tables are straightforward to implement and probably really easy to "update" after features are used. I wish there was a printing guide for printing all the random tables from Knave 2. I run Shadowdark, but my GM binder has the maze rats tables for quick inspiration.
Last weekend I ran Knave 2e for a bunch of games at a local con for kids and adults, experienced gamers and first time gamers. The system was great for a con game and one shot. The slot system is where all the fun is for the players, deciding what to keep and what to drop. I described the system and we all created characters in the first 20 minutes of the session. Fantastic game!
Original Forgotten Realm box sets always had a “focus region” as an example. A big chunk of the original two box sets was dedicated to The Dalelands and Shadowdale mainly. It isn’t gonna be just those 5 example focus regions, they are going to go over all of Faerun hopefully, they have a lot of extra space thanks to dividing it into two books.
I really like Knave in general, for me the only thing missing is a few small, easy to use classes like Shadowdark. Maybe it's limiting but those fantasy archetypes are really good at giving characters their personality.
In a cool world DnD Beyond would start making all sort of retro material avaible for their users, you could make Odnd characters, Adnd 2e, 3/3.5 and even 4e. Like a full celebration of all things dnd and it's history, but i get that it would be a lot of work and have almost zero impact in the userbase, gods some people would probaby complain that they are wastingn time with all that old stuff.
Couple thoughts on themes you’ve hit on recently Mike. First, loving your character creation videos and discussion on the development of online tools for RPG character creation. Wanted to also flag the Monte Cook Cypher tools available on their website for character creation in that system. It’s a great tool, and I think a great way to make it easy for new players with that system. Second, separately, I’d be interested in your take on OGL versus Creative Commons publishing. Overall, CC is definitely better for the hobby, however, it is a bit sad to lose the massive library and growth of Open Game Content that was free for creators to use under the OGL (like how Kobold Press’ Monster Vault is under the more restrictive ORC instead of being like the OGC Tome of Beast books).
54:20 Ah yes, the Flytrap Method. Highly lethal. Although I think it works best with "coffee table books" like Mork Borg - anything that's captivating to leaf through. DCC doesn't have quite as gripping a layout, unless one is really partial to pre-digital early-90s splats.
Those five regions are a fairly good spread for average and new players who are targets. Those with Avernus and Frostmaiden are going to buy it anyway. Still wish Cormyr made the cut...
Great show again. Question: does running a5e, a system so similar to 5e, make rounds slower? Do players always check for differences between their spells and standard 5e?
Err,.. Mmm,.. Ah? Mothership? what's Mothership? I really hope this is a teaser, and that you are planning to run Mothership and do a campaign prep series, like you did with Shadowdark. Mothership has become my new obsession, much like Shadowdark.
Yes, some of us just want basic positioning in our ttrgp, but some of us want more. Computers + D&D is an idea that came up about 5 minutes after D&D was thought of. My basic rubric is "Does this tool work better than paper and dice?" So far, the answer is no. It *IS* yes in computer wargames. The "single hamburger for 30 years" business problem also goes back to the beginning. If WOTC gets ham-fisted about this, Sly Flourish and all the other 3rd paper publishers can have more of my money. My working hypothesis is that all the (business) smart people went to computer games and made things like Civilization and World of Warcraft and, oh, wait, Baldur's Gate. I'd like to know how Larian and WOTC/Wizards/Hasbro couldn't find a way to split that big pile of money.
I think the idea behind the Forgotten Realms setting book is that each of the areas correspond to a particular type of environment. My guess is they did this to provide several detailed but still very succinct adventuring regions: Baldur's Gate: Urban Icewind Dale: Arctic Moonshae Isles: Islands Calimshan: Hot desert the Dalelands: Temperate woods and meadows
Could be, but I'm giving them less credit than that. Sly Flourish laid out the author/source of your first 3. I don't have any idea about Calimshan, but I heard Dalelands and thought about Ed Greenwood (and friends?). I am sure others know more about who wrote what and who is still punching keys and who could rewrite the old stuff.
Grocery stores decide every day what products you get to buy and don''t. They also charge through the nose for shelf space. No one is expending this much energy on peanut butter.
Agreed. We have Balder’s Gate and even the Waterdeep book. If they wanted an urban environment and icon Sword Coast they could have done Neverwinter (movie tie in) or even better, Luskan.
It's less WotC having a "clear plan", and more that WotC keeps making decisions that REQUIRE community pushback and outrage for them to change. Yes, give them credit for changing stuff, but at what point do we acknowledge that their initial decision-making bias tends to be anti-consumer? They seem to just be hoping the community isn't paying attention so they can slide stuff in, if they get caught they try to flip it make it seem like they are "reacting to community feedback".
Ill tell you why WOTC is doing this: they have a PR strategy now. After being completely caught unaware om how to deal with OGL gate... Fabricate a crisis, get lots of online mentions for the algorithm (free publicity) ... then "do the right thing" and be seen doing it (when they planned for that all along) and get a bunch of Fan goodwill back (looks at WOTC doing the right thing for us fans)
"Bundle from the guy who invented D&D..." I mean, I understand where you're coming from, but I wouldn't take the Wright brothers as inspiration for my modern jets 🤷🏻♂️
Thanks for taking a look at Knave, Mike!
It's really good Ben, and you should talk about it more :)
Thanks for making it!
Just ordered mine and having a blast! I rolled up some magic potions the other day 👍🏽
Mike didn't mention this, but one of the genius aspects of Knave's hp system damaging your inventory slots is that you now have less space to bring treasure (i.e. experience points!) back to town
Really happy to see Knave getting your focus here! On the one hand it's pushed me firmly into having a glut of systems (this, Shadowdark, Cairn) with many of the same pros and cons. On the other hand it's got some very fun differences from the others and covers some things they don't, so together they can form a great GM buffet.
"Cheeseburger in Paradise."
… oh, NOT Jimmy Buffett 😂
I've found Knave 2 and ShadowDark go together like PB&J!
Those medieval decorations were incredibly useful and some have already found a place in dungeons I'm writing. Thank you!
“You can be angry, but you can’t be surprised". Perfect.
Normally, I'm a real crunch loving gamer, but I picked up Knave 2e through the Kickstarter to try something improv heavy.
I ran a Diablo 1 inspired cathedral dungeon crawl with two players and we had a great time. The one player managed to solo The Butcher against great odds. (Love those moments).
I love the item slot system and wish more games had uses for equipment like this. I have been looking at ways to use it in other rpgs I run.
Great podcast! Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Mike.
Great to see Knave out there. One of my favorites in the OSR among Shadowdark.
I love knave2e. Also maze rats will always have a special place in my heart
Really glad to see you covering Knave Mike! It's a great game, with tons of useful tools to inspire GMs.
Been running a Knave 2e hex crawl/faction intrigue game for about 6 months now and we are loving it
What mechanics or system do you use to run faction intrigue?
That's really interesting! I've been wondering what a longer campaign in Knave looks like, since it's easier to imagine at lower levels, short campaigns, or one shots.
What are some things you've noticed as far as depth and level scaling? Thanks!
@@sweetsummerschild The characters are still only level 2 and we've had maybe 7 or 8 sessions, so I can't speak much to the scaling and character progression. But in general I see no issue with using this system for long term campaigns. You can implement character feats, but instead of choosing them from a set of options in an offical book they develope from the story and are home brewed. Magic items, spell casting, ability scores all increase as the PCs level up. I've heard complaints that there are too many encounters per the traveling rules as written and I've found that to not be an issue. It's a great base game to build off of with your own home brew mechanics laid on top (not required but easy to implement).
@@EvanDuly No special mechanics, just checks/saves from risky PC actions. But we're playing in a Vaults of Vaarn world which is a hack of the original Knave and I'm using the factions from the second zine in that module, Gnomon. Each faction has a couple major NPCs whcih have goals, personalities, etc..
Knave 2 = great book, great system. Encaustic painting factoid = getting your portrait done was extremely popular 2,000 years ago in Egypt and around the Mediterranean, and tens of thousands of them have survived intact (despite having been painted in wax).
I'm here for the Knave 2 review. Love the book and the Peter Mullen artwork.
Pair Knave 2 with Sandbox Generator by Atelier Clandestin, and you can build your own fantasy worlds!
Exactly this
Knave 2e is THE MOST BANG FOR THE BUCK RPG you will ever purchase!
Even though I knew a bunch of it already, I found your examination of medieval architecture and decorations to be a highlight in all the time I’ve watched your show. It gave me a ton of great ideas. Thanks!
I love the knave 2e book. It’s full of helpful tables I can use for any game I’m playing, on top of being a fun game itself!
the Knave tables remind me of the awesome tables in Index Card RPG. A lot of work and thought clearly put into these works
34:40 there is a tier list for treasure. common, uncommon, and rare items, the description of which is under equipment, and you apply that to the different treasures and items table. I typically just roll a treasure for each enemy and chest in a room.
It will be nice for the Dalelands to get some love. I've been running a campaign for the last couple of years that has taken place in Sembia and the Dalelands. I like that area.
Knave 2 looks like a lot of fun. I liked the grid tables from Maze Rats more, but d100 tables are straightforward to implement and probably really easy to "update" after features are used.
I wish there was a printing guide for printing all the random tables from Knave 2. I run Shadowdark, but my GM binder has the maze rats tables for quick inspiration.
Knave is Awesome!
Not to forget, Calimshan also has probably one of the best 3pp content for 5e as well.
Great timing - just picked up the physical Eberron book for 30% off right now from Amazon!
Last weekend I ran Knave 2e for a bunch of games at a local con for kids and adults, experienced gamers and first time gamers. The system was great for a con game and one shot. The slot system is where all the fun is for the players, deciding what to keep and what to drop. I described the system and we all created characters in the first 20 minutes of the session. Fantastic game!
Gatta get Knave now!! Looks really cool
Original Forgotten Realm box sets always had a “focus region” as an example. A big chunk of the original two box sets was dedicated to The Dalelands and Shadowdale mainly. It isn’t gonna be just those 5 example focus regions, they are going to go over all of Faerun hopefully, they have a lot of extra space thanks to dividing it into two books.
I love knave 2
My friends don't even get a bite of my burger! But a pizza now! THAT'S a better food based analogy for the 30 year product. 😅
I really like Knave in general, for me the only thing missing is a few small, easy to use classes like Shadowdark. Maybe it's limiting but those fantasy archetypes are really good at giving characters their personality.
Humble Bundle is worth it for the Tome of Horrors monster books!
In a cool world DnD Beyond would start making all sort of retro material avaible for their users, you could make Odnd characters, Adnd 2e, 3/3.5 and even 4e. Like a full celebration of all things dnd and it's history, but i get that it would be a lot of work and have almost zero impact in the userbase, gods some people would probaby complain that they are wastingn time with all that old stuff.
Ability scores in Into the Odd games make a huge amount of sense imo.
Couple thoughts on themes you’ve hit on recently Mike. First, loving your character creation videos and discussion on the development of online tools for RPG character creation. Wanted to also flag the Monte Cook Cypher tools available on their website for character creation in that system. It’s a great tool, and I think a great way to make it easy for new players with that system. Second, separately, I’d be interested in your take on OGL versus Creative Commons publishing. Overall, CC is definitely better for the hobby, however, it is a bit sad to lose the massive library and growth of Open Game Content that was free for creators to use under the OGL (like how Kobold Press’ Monster Vault is under the more restrictive ORC instead of being like the OGC Tome of Beast books).
The 1E Fiend Folio has a Caryatid Column monster similar to stone golems. (Fiend Folio pg. 18)
I just backed the Kickstarter
54:20 Ah yes, the Flytrap Method. Highly lethal. Although I think it works best with "coffee table books" like Mork Borg - anything that's captivating to leaf through. DCC doesn't have quite as gripping a layout, unless one is really partial to pre-digital early-90s splats.
Mork Borg is irritating to flip through
So many tables! Table affluence
I would love some official content on Thay and Moonshae Isles
What about PDFs. Can you get the out of print PDFs?
Those five regions are a fairly good spread for average and new players who are targets. Those with Avernus and Frostmaiden are going to buy it anyway. Still wish Cormyr made the cut...
Just the word "fresco" makes me happy
Great show again. Question: does running a5e, a system so similar to 5e, make rounds slower? Do players always check for differences between their spells and standard 5e?
That hasn’t been my experience
Thank you
0:33:51 make this treasure table 😍💖 it sounds like a useful addition to Knave 2e
Err,.. Mmm,.. Ah? Mothership? what's Mothership?
I really hope this is a teaser, and that you are planning to run Mothership and do a campaign prep series, like you did with Shadowdark.
Mothership has become my new obsession, much like Shadowdark.
for them to make a centralized plan would mean they would have to be good at business
I read that Knave 2e is only 8 pages of rules and the rest of the book is just tables. Can someone confirm if this is true?
Pretty close!
And that's a good thing!
Yes, some of us just want basic positioning in our ttrgp, but some of us want more. Computers + D&D is an idea that came up about 5 minutes after D&D was thought of. My basic rubric is "Does this tool work better than paper and dice?" So far, the answer is no. It *IS* yes in computer wargames.
The "single hamburger for 30 years" business problem also goes back to the beginning. If WOTC gets ham-fisted about this, Sly Flourish and all the other 3rd paper publishers can have more of my money.
My working hypothesis is that all the (business) smart people went to computer games and made things like Civilization and World of Warcraft and, oh, wait, Baldur's Gate. I'd like to know how Larian and WOTC/Wizards/Hasbro couldn't find a way to split that big pile of money.
Thanks
I think the idea behind the Forgotten Realms setting book is that each of the areas correspond to a particular type of environment. My guess is they did this to provide several detailed but still very succinct adventuring regions:
Baldur's Gate: Urban
Icewind Dale: Arctic
Moonshae Isles: Islands
Calimshan: Hot desert
the Dalelands: Temperate woods and meadows
Could be, but I'm giving them less credit than that. Sly Flourish laid out the author/source of your first 3. I don't have any idea about Calimshan, but I heard Dalelands and thought about Ed Greenwood (and friends?). I am sure others know more about who wrote what and who is still punching keys and who could rewrite the old stuff.
Keep on the Borderlands was BECMI. Or, at least, that's what I played it with.
Grocery stores decide every day what products you get to buy and don''t. They also charge through the nose for shelf space. No one is expending this much energy on peanut butter.
Some people want to read about places in the realms and to run games there without having that info gated in a module.
And the DM’s Guild stuff seems pretty niche, in that most folks don’t know about it/make use of it. So I wouldn’t count that as “support”
Agreed. We have Balder’s Gate and even the Waterdeep book. If they wanted an urban environment and icon Sword Coast they could have done Neverwinter (movie tie in) or even better, Luskan.
It's less WotC having a "clear plan", and more that WotC keeps making decisions that REQUIRE community pushback and outrage for them to change. Yes, give them credit for changing stuff, but at what point do we acknowledge that their initial decision-making bias tends to be anti-consumer? They seem to just be hoping the community isn't paying attention so they can slide stuff in, if they get caught they try to flip it make it seem like they are "reacting to community feedback".
Does the City of Arches include the Golden Arches?
Because for 25 years WotC management has proven to be craven and utterly incompetent.
SHOUTOUT DRAGON"S DEN GAMES IN SASKATOON SASKATCHEWAN! My local FLGS :)))
Ill tell you why WOTC is doing this: they have a PR strategy now. After being completely caught unaware om how to deal with OGL gate...
Fabricate a crisis, get lots of online mentions for the algorithm (free publicity) ... then "do the right thing" and be seen doing it (when they planned for that all along) and get a bunch of Fan goodwill back (looks at WOTC doing the right thing for us fans)
That completely violates Hanlons Razor.
I'm assuming this is published in the States? Expect lots of childish giggles and sniggers from the UK market...sorry 🤣🤣🤣🤣
It is... I have an idea of what the UK slang is, but Google isn't telling me, haha
Why, what does Knave mean in the UK? I haven't heard anything from my UK customers
@@QuestingBeast It was the title of a top shelf magazine... One of the many titles of the scruff of yesteryear that could be found in bushes...
@@QuestingBeast It was a bit like a low-rent cross between Hustler and Penthouse. Yeah, the title raised an adolescent grin.
@@mattjones6261 guess the bushes depends on the era 😂
"Bundle from the guy who invented D&D..."
I mean, I understand where you're coming from, but I wouldn't take the Wright brothers as inspiration for my modern jets 🤷🏻♂️